Post by Nox on Jun 21, 2016 7:57:34 GMT
Originally created by: Maura
Maura on Mar 15, 2016 at 9:23am
I personally don't really know if it's racist or not but I don't like the "black" and "dark" being associated with "negativity" and "evil. It's bullshit. Also stuff like Voodoo wich are mainly practised by black people and also alot of stuff shamans do are considered black magic and "evil" even tjo they aren't. I personally would prefer saying "good" and "evil" or something.:.
Nox on Mar 15, 2016 at 11:27am
Ahhh I can see how you'd feel uncomfortable with such a thing. I used to think that way, but a lot of witches used 'black and white', so I just use those terms? I no longer see it as racist or anything, but I find it too basic. Like, magic is one big gray area. It's not just good and evil. I feel like there just shouldn't be these sort of terms-apply normal vocabulary to it. But it also makes me feel like less of a witch if I don't use such terms?
Chrystal on Mar 15, 2016 at 5:12pm
The way I see it, there's no such thing as "black" and "white" magic. Magic is a tool, and a tool can't be evil. It is the wielder of the tool who decides whether to use the tool for good or bad deeds. A knife isn't evil, is it? Yet, a person who wields a knife can severely injure someone with it.
So, IMO the terms should be completely erased because 1) magic can't be defined as good or bad, and 2) associating dark with bad has a racist undertone to it.
Ilene on Mar 15, 2016 at 10:39pm
I don't think that black/dark as negative and white/light as positive originating from race, but it has its roots in religion. My understanding, and don't take this as 100% or anything, is that good as being light has been heavily ingrained into most western societies because of religion. I wouldn't say it's inherently racist to associate light and good or dark and bad, but these ideas can and probably do influence people's perceptions of race.
It's really heavily reinforced by the Abrahamic religions (Judaism/Islam/Christianity) that god is light, and good. So, if god is light then the absence of light, darkness, is bad. I can't say if this idea is anywhere in my traditional Stó:lō religion, Eastern religions like Hinduism or Shintoism, or African religions because unfortunately I don't know much about them. So, at least in my understanding, that's where the idea of light is good, dark is bad comes from.
In relation to witchcraft though, I don't think having two fixed catagories of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' is really useful. Even in everyday life, I don't like the idea that things are inherently good or bad. Morality is subjective. What one person sees as completely acceptable might be the worst thing ever in someone else's eyes. Things aren't black and white. You can do a 'good' thing for a 'bad' reason, and a 'bad' thing for a 'good' reason. Just slapping lables onto things and ignoring the nuance behind it doesn't help anyone. But honestly, I don't care what people call things. It's their intention that matters, and how what they're doing effects others.
Nox on Mar 16, 2016 at 4:59am
I wholeheartedly agree actually!! This was a very useful and informational contribution to the forum! I'll keep it noted in my grimoire somewhere.
Scarlet on Mar 30, 2016 at 6:41am
I totally agree with Nox and Ilene. I think the terms 'black' and 'white' magic aren't necessarily meant to be racist, but always were terms of religion.
It was also not only used in Abrahamic religions. For example, the image of 'black' and 'white' also exists in Taoism, take Yin and Yang as proof. Different from what western people often think, Yin and Yang don't only portray a picture of the good fighting against the evil, but generally show two forces that will always oppose each other. Like the moon and the sun or the female and the male gender.
Going further into the subject, it relies on the old theory of dualism which many philosophers as Confucius or Plato believed in.
If you're interested:
Dualism is the philosophical theory that the world is run by two main forces which defy with each other (see the similarity to Yin and Yang?). They don't have to be good or evil but are mostly viewed as good and evil. The two forces need each other to maintain, e.g. no good without evil, no evil without good. Thus, they need each other and also complete each other.
(Of course, this theory has many flaws and does not cover everything. I mean, we know that there are more forces than just two forces, e.g. there are certainly more genders than female and male. There isn't just 'black' and 'white'; there is 'gray', too)
Well, as an addition to Ilene's explanation why Abrahamic religions used the image of 'white' and 'black' or rather light and dark,
here's now my explanation: 'white' characterizes everything we know and 'black' everything we don't, in my opinion. 'White' is everything the light of God touches, 'black' are the things in the hand of the Devil. The small sunlit earth seems so much safer than the big endless and dark outer space, right? We know so much more about the Christian religion than the other ones, right?
Here's the point what made 'black' and 'white' magic really racist: it is (again) the western or Christian view on other religion that Maura already depicted. As we know, 'white' magic is every magical power to create or heal the good, 'black' magic every magical power to destroy or curse the good. So why is Voodoo (an originally good African religion which has the purpose on summoning good fortune and healing wounded people by worshipping spirits or the mother spirit) categorized as 'black' magic? Because Christian proselytizers didn't know that. In the middle ages or the renaissance age, the Christian Europeans brutally forced heretic tribes to convert. If they saw a 'weird' religion that didn't follow their standard, they didn't ask whether it is a religion of good nature. They just killed them, mainly because the religion had other ways to worship their god(s) and this scared them. In conclusion, what made Voodoo and other foreign or African religions black magic alias evil, was the fear of the unknown religions and the unwillingness to learn something new.
(And later on, bad horror or fantasy movies...)
I think, the terms black and white magic were only used with racist intention in the Christian side of the world in earlier centuries, so I think the usage of it nowerdays is okay to me. But the view of foreign religions in the West is still pretty messed up and has racist stereotypes.
Maura on Mar 15, 2016 at 9:23am
I personally don't really know if it's racist or not but I don't like the "black" and "dark" being associated with "negativity" and "evil. It's bullshit. Also stuff like Voodoo wich are mainly practised by black people and also alot of stuff shamans do are considered black magic and "evil" even tjo they aren't. I personally would prefer saying "good" and "evil" or something.:.
Nox on Mar 15, 2016 at 11:27am
Ahhh I can see how you'd feel uncomfortable with such a thing. I used to think that way, but a lot of witches used 'black and white', so I just use those terms? I no longer see it as racist or anything, but I find it too basic. Like, magic is one big gray area. It's not just good and evil. I feel like there just shouldn't be these sort of terms-apply normal vocabulary to it. But it also makes me feel like less of a witch if I don't use such terms?
Chrystal on Mar 15, 2016 at 5:12pm
The way I see it, there's no such thing as "black" and "white" magic. Magic is a tool, and a tool can't be evil. It is the wielder of the tool who decides whether to use the tool for good or bad deeds. A knife isn't evil, is it? Yet, a person who wields a knife can severely injure someone with it.
So, IMO the terms should be completely erased because 1) magic can't be defined as good or bad, and 2) associating dark with bad has a racist undertone to it.
Ilene on Mar 15, 2016 at 10:39pm
I don't think that black/dark as negative and white/light as positive originating from race, but it has its roots in religion. My understanding, and don't take this as 100% or anything, is that good as being light has been heavily ingrained into most western societies because of religion. I wouldn't say it's inherently racist to associate light and good or dark and bad, but these ideas can and probably do influence people's perceptions of race.
It's really heavily reinforced by the Abrahamic religions (Judaism/Islam/Christianity) that god is light, and good. So, if god is light then the absence of light, darkness, is bad. I can't say if this idea is anywhere in my traditional Stó:lō religion, Eastern religions like Hinduism or Shintoism, or African religions because unfortunately I don't know much about them. So, at least in my understanding, that's where the idea of light is good, dark is bad comes from.
In relation to witchcraft though, I don't think having two fixed catagories of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' is really useful. Even in everyday life, I don't like the idea that things are inherently good or bad. Morality is subjective. What one person sees as completely acceptable might be the worst thing ever in someone else's eyes. Things aren't black and white. You can do a 'good' thing for a 'bad' reason, and a 'bad' thing for a 'good' reason. Just slapping lables onto things and ignoring the nuance behind it doesn't help anyone. But honestly, I don't care what people call things. It's their intention that matters, and how what they're doing effects others.
Nox on Mar 16, 2016 at 4:59am
Mar 15, 2016 at 10:39pm Ilene said:
I don't think that black/dark as negative and white/light as positive originating from race, but it has its roots in religion. My understanding, and don't take this as 100% or anything, is that good as being light has been heavily ingrained into most western societies because of religion. I wouldn't say it's inherently racist to associate light and good or dark and bad, but these ideas can and probably do influence people's perceptions of race.
It's really heavily reinforced by the Abrahamic religions (Judaism/Islam/Christianity) that god is light, and good. So, if god is light then the absence of light, darkness, is bad. I can't say if this idea is anywhere in my traditional Stó:lō religion, Eastern religions like Hinduism or Shintoism, or African religions because unfortunately I don't know much about them. So, at least in my understanding, that's where the idea of light is good, dark is bad comes from.
In relation to witchcraft though, I don't think having two fixed catagories of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' is really useful. Even in everyday life, I don't like the idea that things are inherently good or bad. Morality is subjective. What one person sees as completely acceptable might be the worst thing ever in someone else's eyes. Things aren't black and white. You can do a 'good' thing for a 'bad' reason, and a 'bad' thing for a 'good' reason. Just slapping lables onto things and ignoring the nuance behind it doesn't help anyone. But honestly, I don't care what people call things. It's their intention that matters, and how what they're doing effects others.
I don't think that black/dark as negative and white/light as positive originating from race, but it has its roots in religion. My understanding, and don't take this as 100% or anything, is that good as being light has been heavily ingrained into most western societies because of religion. I wouldn't say it's inherently racist to associate light and good or dark and bad, but these ideas can and probably do influence people's perceptions of race.
It's really heavily reinforced by the Abrahamic religions (Judaism/Islam/Christianity) that god is light, and good. So, if god is light then the absence of light, darkness, is bad. I can't say if this idea is anywhere in my traditional Stó:lō religion, Eastern religions like Hinduism or Shintoism, or African religions because unfortunately I don't know much about them. So, at least in my understanding, that's where the idea of light is good, dark is bad comes from.
In relation to witchcraft though, I don't think having two fixed catagories of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' is really useful. Even in everyday life, I don't like the idea that things are inherently good or bad. Morality is subjective. What one person sees as completely acceptable might be the worst thing ever in someone else's eyes. Things aren't black and white. You can do a 'good' thing for a 'bad' reason, and a 'bad' thing for a 'good' reason. Just slapping lables onto things and ignoring the nuance behind it doesn't help anyone. But honestly, I don't care what people call things. It's their intention that matters, and how what they're doing effects others.
I wholeheartedly agree actually!! This was a very useful and informational contribution to the forum! I'll keep it noted in my grimoire somewhere.
Scarlet on Mar 30, 2016 at 6:41am
I totally agree with Nox and Ilene. I think the terms 'black' and 'white' magic aren't necessarily meant to be racist, but always were terms of religion.
It was also not only used in Abrahamic religions. For example, the image of 'black' and 'white' also exists in Taoism, take Yin and Yang as proof. Different from what western people often think, Yin and Yang don't only portray a picture of the good fighting against the evil, but generally show two forces that will always oppose each other. Like the moon and the sun or the female and the male gender.
Going further into the subject, it relies on the old theory of dualism which many philosophers as Confucius or Plato believed in.
If you're interested:
Dualism is the philosophical theory that the world is run by two main forces which defy with each other (see the similarity to Yin and Yang?). They don't have to be good or evil but are mostly viewed as good and evil. The two forces need each other to maintain, e.g. no good without evil, no evil without good. Thus, they need each other and also complete each other.
(Of course, this theory has many flaws and does not cover everything. I mean, we know that there are more forces than just two forces, e.g. there are certainly more genders than female and male. There isn't just 'black' and 'white'; there is 'gray', too)
Well, as an addition to Ilene's explanation why Abrahamic religions used the image of 'white' and 'black' or rather light and dark,
here's now my explanation: 'white' characterizes everything we know and 'black' everything we don't, in my opinion. 'White' is everything the light of God touches, 'black' are the things in the hand of the Devil. The small sunlit earth seems so much safer than the big endless and dark outer space, right? We know so much more about the Christian religion than the other ones, right?
Here's the point what made 'black' and 'white' magic really racist: it is (again) the western or Christian view on other religion that Maura already depicted. As we know, 'white' magic is every magical power to create or heal the good, 'black' magic every magical power to destroy or curse the good. So why is Voodoo (an originally good African religion which has the purpose on summoning good fortune and healing wounded people by worshipping spirits or the mother spirit) categorized as 'black' magic? Because Christian proselytizers didn't know that. In the middle ages or the renaissance age, the Christian Europeans brutally forced heretic tribes to convert. If they saw a 'weird' religion that didn't follow their standard, they didn't ask whether it is a religion of good nature. They just killed them, mainly because the religion had other ways to worship their god(s) and this scared them. In conclusion, what made Voodoo and other foreign or African religions black magic alias evil, was the fear of the unknown religions and the unwillingness to learn something new.
(And later on, bad horror or fantasy movies...)
I think, the terms black and white magic were only used with racist intention in the Christian side of the world in earlier centuries, so I think the usage of it nowerdays is okay to me. But the view of foreign religions in the West is still pretty messed up and has racist stereotypes.